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Vedic Civilization: In Harmonys Way
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News Summary: Accordingly, Vedic sages were known as Rishi which the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon [1] defines as a singer of sacred hymns, an inspired poet or sage, any person who alone or with others invokes the deities in rhythmical speech or song of a sacred character. Many modern minds get horribly triggered or perplexed by the idea of deities or gods, while in the Vedic mind deities were simply forces, phenomena or beings of our Earth and Cosmos that carry on or persist in perpetual tune with the One.....read more in: Vedic Civilization: In Harmonys Way

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35 Lori Tompkins on Mar-17 :

Here"s a Related Post (posted 17 March 2010) titled "The 9, the 0, the Unified Multiplicity and the Mother"):

http://circumsolatious.blogspot.com/2010/03/9-0-unified-multiplicity-and-divine.html
34 g kapuria on Mar-16 :

KKB.. May be you should tell us about your enlightenment.
33 Kishan Bhatia on Mar-15 :

Feedback sent to Author: Vedic-Civilization:-In-Harmonys-Way

Very interesting and enlightening.

One of the better articles I have seen on the subject.

Thanks for enlightenment. Kishan
32 g kapuria on Mar-12 :

LT..I think I have found the problem. I see in Savitri, Sri Aurobindo used "zero" to describe Asat. Perhaps he has used zero in this sense elsewhere as well. It is like the Buddhist shunya of nirvana. It is not the mathematical zero. PNB may not have made the distinction.
31 g kapuria on Mar-02 :

LT.. After reading the articles in the links you have provided, I still remain completely unconvinced about the claims.
30 Lori Tompkins on Mar-01 :

GP ... This is the last comment I will make here regarding your questions about Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet"s efforts towards restoring Vedic Wisdom and the Zero, etc., because I have pointed you towards where you can study these matters further if you wish. My comment is really just a couple more links. The first link is to a post I recently put up of PNB"s discussion of "The Circle and the Point" and the 9 and the Zero in a 1975 book called "Symbols and the Question of Unity" which was printed at the Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press in Pondicherry, India. And the second is a website by Ms. Norelli-Bachelet, titled "Puranic Cosmology Updated". Best of Light in your studies.

http://circumsolatious.blogspot.com/2010/02/circle-and-point-9-and-0.html

http://puraniccosmologyupdated.blogspot.com/
28 g kapuria on Feb-25 :

LT.. Thanks for pointing to the Taittiriya Upanishad vese. But let us look at the whole context.

So akamaayata bahu syaam prajaayeyeti. Sa tapo.atapyata. sa tapastaptvaa. Idam sarvamsrijata. Yadidam kincha. Tat srishTvaa. Tadevanupravishat. 2.6.3

Sah akaamaayata (He wished) bahu syaam (I will become many). Prajaayeya iti (will become created). Sah tapah atapyata (He performed tapasyaa). Sah tapah tapatvaa (He, having performed tapasya) yad idam kincha (all these there are) idam sarvam (all everything) asrijata (created). Tat srishTvaa (Having created that) tat eva anupravishat (entered in that). In these verses, Tat is creation as a whole.

Tadanupravishya. Saccha tyacchyabhavat. Niruktam chaniruktancha. Nilayanchaanilayancha. Vijnaanancha avijnaanancha. Satyanchaanritancha satyamabhavat. Yadidam kincha. Tat satyamityaachakshate tadapyesha shloko bhavati.

Tat anupravishya (Having entered that), sat cha tyam cha (sat and tat), niruktam cha (that which is explained ) aniruktam cha (that which is not explained ), nilayanam cha (that which is supported ) anilayanam cha (and that which is unsupported ), vijnaanam cha (that which is knowledge ), avijnaanam cha (and that which is ignorance ), satyam cha (that which is true ) anritam cha (and that which is untrue), abhavat (He became). Yat idam kim cha (Whatever are all these) satyam abhavat (the satya-svarup became) tat satyam iti aachakshate (therefore the designation "satya" ). Ttat api esha shlokah bhavati (About which this shloka exists ). And that is the shloka you quoted.

Simplified, God described here as Sah created Sat and Tat and both sides of everything else.

Asad vaa idamagra aasit. Tato vai sadjaayata.
Tadaatmaanam svayamkuruta. Tasmaatat sukritamuchyate. 2.7.1

Idam (this universe) agra (earlier) asat vai aasit (existed as asat). Tattah vai (From that) sat (sat) ajaayata (was born). Tat (That) svayam aatmaanam akuruta (did it so to Itself). Tasmaat (Therefore) Tat (That) sukritam uchyate (is called the Sukrita).

The universe existed existed earlier as asat. Asat is Tat. Then, sat was born from that asat. It was a self- transformation of asat. Taittiriya Upanishad explains sat further -

Yadvai tat sukritam. Raso vai sah. Rasam hovayam labdhvaanandii bhavati.
Yat vai (That which is) tat sukritam (that sukrita) sah vai rasah (is verily the Rasa). Rasam hi eva (verily this rasa) labdhvaa (having received) ayam (this one) aanandii bhavati (becomes blissful).
The main information I get from these verses is that Tat (or Asat) was formed before Sat. And Sah entered both. In other words, the Divine presence is asat is due to Divine will.

Asat is non-expressed. In the Gita, Shri Krishna says:

avyaktaadiini bhutaani vyaktamadhyaani bhaarata.
Avyaktanidhanaanyeva tatra kaa paridevanaa. 2.28

Bharata (O descendant of king Bharat), bhutaani (the beings) avyakta aadini (were non-expressed in the beginning), vyakta madhyaani (expressed in the middle) avyakta nidhanaani eva (non-expressed after death) tatra kaa paridevanaa (why be sad for that)?

Non-expressed to expressed and again to non-expressed is a property of asat. As you know, avyakta is also a description of Para-prakriti. She becomes jiva-bhutaa (7.5). Perhaps She is the sat. However, I still do not see the idea of zero.

I will not be checking this forum for a few days.
27 Lori Tompkins on Feb-24 :

GP, I don"t know if the following will help you see how Zero is related to impermanence and non-being, as well as to infinity . but here are some relevant discussions of Sat/Asat [Being/Non-Being]:

"asat va idam agra aasiit; tato vai sat ajaayata" - Taittiriya Upanishad II.7

Sri Aurobindo refers to this verse in "The Life Divine" (p. 33): "Out of the Non-Being, says the ancient Scripture, Being appeared.* Then into the Non-Being it must surely sink again." ["*In the beginning all this was the Non-Being. It was thence that Being was born. - Taittiriya Upanishad II.7."]

Madhvacarya"s Commentary on Brahma Vaisnava Sampradaya: "Supreme Lord is called param brahman meaning the Supreme brahman and is both sat or eternal existence and asat or non existence possessing a transcendental spiritual form and formless being without a physical form.

***
In Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet"s seeing, the Circle with its Point [the symbol of the simultaneous One and Many, the symbol of the Sun] describes Sat or Being, as well as the dynamics of Becoming. (The New Way, Vols. 1&2, p.445). In "Symbols and the Question of Unity" she describes the Point as essentially the Non-Being or un-manifest Source from which Being is born. In the Sun Symbol, the simultaneous Sat/Asat can be "seen".

26 g kapuria on Feb-20 :

LT..I do not have that book, so I do not know in what context Sri Aurobindo made those comments. However, I can point you to a Gita verse that describes the general understanding of asat:
naa sato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate satah
ubhayorapi drishTo.antastva anayostattvadarshibhih
(asat does not have existence, sat does not have non-existence, but the end of both have been seen by the seers of tattva 2.16). Sri Krishna explained what He meant by asat: "antavantah ime dehah" (tbese impermanent bodies of ours, 2.18). Shri Krishna answered what He meant by the end of sat and asat by saying that He is "sadasacchaham" (I am sat and asat) (9.19), that is, sat and asat end in Him. That is how the seers of tattva see the end of sat and asat. It is hard to imagine that zero can be conceived by looking at the impermanence of our bodies. Perhaps, asat has been used in our scriptures in another meaning as well. May be you can explain?
25 Lori Tompkins on Feb-19 :

GP, Here"s more Sri Aurobindo ... on the subject of the zero and infinity:

"Nothing can arise from Nothing. Asat, nothingness, is a creation of our mind; where it cannot see or conceive, where its object is something beyond its grasp, too much beyond to give even the sense of a vague intangibility, then it cries out, "Here there is nothing." Out of its own incapacity it has created the conception of a Zero. But what in truth is this zero? It is an incalculable Infinite. Our sense by its incapacity has invented darkness. In truth there is nothing but Light, only it is a power of light either above or below our poor human vision"s limited range. For do not imagine that light is created by the Suns. The Suns are only physical concentrations of Light, but the splendour they concentrate for us is self-born and everywhere. God is everywhere and wherever God is, there is Light. Jnanam chaitanyam jyotir Brahma."- Volume: 12 [CWSA] (Essays Divine and Human), Page: 188

A colleague of mine (Robert E. Wilkinson) happens to be working on a presentation of these issues of the Vedic fullness, the zero, the point, etc. I will let you know where you might find that when it is complete.
24 g kapuria on Feb-18 :

I see it now. They have allowed the post :-)
23 g kapuria on Feb-18 :

LT.. I am not ignoring your post. I submitted my response this morning, and it has not appeared because it has a website link.
22 g kapuria on Feb-18 :

LT..I am not convinced that ancients saw Bindu as zero. From what I have read, I am certain that Hindu mathematicians saw zero as a numeral, not as infinity. Tantra describes Bindu as a compact of infinity. After reading your latest post, I searched the internet to see if others have made similar conclusions as your group. I found that a Buddhist group have (http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library/essays/yogacara-part2.htm).
21 Lori Tompkins on Feb-17 :

G Kapuria ... think in the vein of Sri Aurobindo teachings that "out of absolute Nothingness nothing can come, not even anything merely apparent, not even an illusion". Patrizia is saying the Rishi"s did not SEE the zero as a barren VOID, but rather as a seed or core point that contained the Whole, a COMPACT FULLNESS to be expressed in the course of time and space ... just like the point of the circle "contains" the whole circle. With regard to your 2nd inquiry, "zero point" (in terms of an entry point into a new life) does not mean that one comes into life EMPTY of past karma and life purpose ... on the contrary one"s birth or Zero Point gives some inclination of what one is here to play out. If you look at the image of the Gnostic Circle (from an online search) you will see something of how the 0 and the 9 are connected ... how fullness comes from fullness (as in the verse you mention) in terms of the circle, in terms of numbers, in terms of geometry. If you find your way to reading "The Gnostic Circle" by Patrizia, such questions as you raise below will be answered better. You should really read her work if you want to know how it compares with the jagadgurus.

I remember either the Mother or Sri Aurobindo writing about how India"s true dharma is to reawaken her ancient wisdom and be a guru to the world (jagadguru). May it be so!

20 g kapuria on Feb-17 :

If you like, we could also discuss how Patrizia"s interpretation compares with those by the jagadgurus.
19 g kapuria on Feb-17 :

LT.. "But if you have not studied and practiced and applied the knowledge that I am introducing or pointing to here, then how is your determination accurate or valid?"

It is true that I have not read very much of Patrizia"s writings. And I have no spiritual experiences whatsoever. Nevertheless, I can make a judgment based on how her writing compares with the rishis. It is not at all about what "I" think. If you can show me my mistake, I will have no problem accepting your criticism. You should be able to do that because you have studied Patrizia"s writings and have yourself said because of that you have better insight into the true meaning of the Vedas. Let us look at the verse in question:

Purnam adah purnam idam purnaat purnam udachyate
Purnasya purnam aadaaya purnam eva avashishyate.

Adah purnam (That is Full), idam purnam (this is Full), purnaat (from Full) purnam udachyate (emerge the Full), purnasya (of the Full) purnam aadaaya (when the Full is taken) purnam eva (verily the Full) avashishyate (remains).

Generally, this Full refers to the ananta (infinite) aspect of Brahman. If purna is taken away from purna, it still remains purna. That is infinity, not shunyata or zeroness. Mathematically, zero is a number. I have read that Brahmagupta and Bhaskara wrote about zero as it is understood in mathematics today. How ancient they were, and whether they can be considered rishis, I do not know. Also, I have forgotten much about the details on zero.

Patrizia cites this verse to say: "Thus, the origin of Vedic civilisation and culture can be traced back to the birth of the Zero. But it did not arise in the mind of a mathematician. It was born of the vision and realisation of the ancient Rishi, the fruit of his arduous tapasya. Above all, and this is the most important feature of the Zero, it came to him as Purnata, the Fullness. Indeed, if the Veda is the compact essence of the Zero-Seed, only Fullness can describe its true nature. Thus, Zero=Fullness=Veda.

However, a seed cannot grow in a vacuum. The sperm requires a womb and a seed its soil. Once born, the Zero/seed gathers nourishment for its growth from the surrounding soil to attain its full potential. It is not separate from its environment. But in this play of interconnection or intermingling, difficulties arise. We can understand the nature of the problem by simply observing the development of its mathematical notation from ancient times to the present. Though it always contains the essence of the Veda, for that was the Rishi"s realisation, the evolution of the notation began to reflect a concept very different from the Rishi"s experience. It went from Point to Empty Circle; or from Fullness to the Shunya we know today as Zero: 0.

According to these verses, so essential an expression of Vedic culture, we can easily appreciate that this Shunya can never represent that Fullness. Something happened along the way to have allowed for this transmutation, this opposite expression of the original Vedic Point/Zero. Indeed, if the Zero lies at the origin of the Vedic experience, naturally this dramatic disconnect would have to be central to any enquiry into the history of Vedic culture on the subcontinent. How and when did this shift take place?
What is its philosophical/yogic import? As a civilisation, how then are we affected by this dramatic shift from Fullness, the essence of our origin, to Emptiness, its opposite, from Light to the darkness of the Void?

Let us now examine how we can APPLY our understanding of Zero as Fullness and not the emptiness of Shunya, and in which way this may affect the life of Hindu Society. That is, where do we find this Zero in our collective life, the common experience for all its members?

The Zero comes alive for each of us at birth, our very own personal Zero Point, - specifically our entry into Earth time; or else at the beginning of an enterprise, a movement, even a nation. More particularly, at the start of every new year. Indeed, for Hindu Society this would be its most important connection with the Zero in that it affects the entire society that celebrates this occasion collectively. And we do this via the calendar, or calendars, as the case may be."

Simplified, Patrizia is saying that (1) the ancient rishis did not really discover zero as shunyata. They thought zero was infinity. This is hard to accept. I know that some people dismiss the elaboration by the late Shankaracharya of Puri on the Shulva sutras as Vedic mathematics, but nobody challenges that those sutras contain clues to ancient ideas on Hindu mathematics. It is not unreasonable to think that Brahmagupta and Bhaskara wrote about the mathematical zero based on those sutras.

And (2) at birth, we start at our own personal zero point. So, praarabdha karma is not important in determining birth? We do not carry forward karma from previous lives?
18 Lori Tompkins on Feb-17 :

G Kapuria, I hope you can admit that perhaps your ideas of what is true to the Veda, and what represents a restoration of the Veda in modern times, might not be accurate. Your filters and pre-conditions could very well be "pre-programmed" in a way that makes it impossible for you to see the value of Thea"s work ... which you have just barely skimmed the surface of. There is serious depth and incredible logic in her work which deserves a more sincere treatment. To dismiss four decades worth of writing about Vedic Cosmology and Supramental Yoga upon reading a few articles does not speak of a search for truth in these matters, but rather the habit of dismissing that which contrasts with one"s own ideas and beliefs.

I don"t mean to offend you, just as I don"t think you mean to offend me. It"s just that our spiritual/mental/emotional/vital filters are fallible. Mine as well as yours. I found that Thea"s explanations of the Veda, and her discussions of what constitutes living the Vedic Year/Sacrifice and how that path allows individuals to SEE, OBSERVE and EXPERIENCE the divine or supramental consciousness-force at work in one"s own life and world circumstances, to be completely clear and verifiable through LIVED experience. I understand Sri Aurobindo and the Mother"s yoga a thousand fold better because of Thea"s explanations of the Vedic Way, including her attention to mathematical and geometrical detail. You can determine that I am OFF in my assessments/experience/yoga. But if you have not studied and practiced and applied the knowledge that I am introducing or pointing to here, then how is your determination accurate or valid?

Anyway, I think it is important for differences of opinion be AIRED. I don"t think the goal in discussions such as this is agreement or negating the "other"... it is for the REAL ISSUES at hand to be exposed so that others can consider and follow the threads that they are called to follow in their studies or yoga.

May our filters become transparent to the Truth of these matters. ...


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